The Gaming Den

hyzmarca wrote:Technically, nothing you do in an RPG can be considered crafting, unless the minigame has the player physically forge a sword to specifications in order to obtain his +2 keen vorpal rapier (which would be cool, but expensive and time-consuming). No matter what, the player is just picking features out from a series of lists. It doesn't matter if he then pays a little extra GP to outsource his craft roll. It's really the same thing. Ordering custom material to specification is ultimately the exact same thing, mechanically, as paying extra resources for an autosuccess.

Crafting is the process of going from:

• Raw materials (that aren't just money)
  AND
• A design
  TO
• A finished item
  VIA
• Something that feels like your character is actually making the item

hogarth wrote:I have no idea what you're talking about. I've made dozens of D&D characters where I've been able to customise and mix-and-match their equipment without doing any crafting. Please explain to me how I was required to do so, in retrospect.

I don't think MGuy is reading...

RadiantPhoenix wrote:

hyzmarca wrote:Technically, nothing you do in an RPG can be considered crafting, unless the minigame has the player physically forge a sword to specifications in order to obtain his +2 keen vorpal rapier (which would be cool, but expensive and time-consuming). No matter what, the player is just picking features out from a series of lists. It doesn't matter if he then pays a little extra GP to outsource his craft roll. It's really the same thing. Ordering custom material to specification is ultimately the exact same thing, mechanically, as paying extra resources for an autosuccess.

Crafting is the process of going from:

• Raw materials (that aren't just money)
  AND
• A design
  TO
• A finished item
  VIA
• Something that feels like your character is actually making the item

there is also a cost that could be outside of materials as materials may be found without spending money. that cost is time, in the game that can result as downtime for the crafting character.

the reward could be something other than the crafted item as well. reward i dont mean as XP or treasure, but another useful skill related to the crafting.

arrows made during the night while the elf stands watch over the campsite is downtime but not something that bothers people. the time it takes to stand and forge a sword could be hours or days.

there could be a temporary bonus say for a fighter who forges a sword, even normal; that his strength is up 2 points for X days after finishing crafting for the exercise done during the crafting process.

some bonus like that might give incentive to crafting if NOT abused, and make the downtime to craft something a little less negative looking.

just an idea that would need further developing in any sort of "crafting" and would need this "temp bonus" tailored to the crafting itself.

for basketweaving, maybe +X dexterity for a day as another example.

hogarth wrote:

MGuy wrote: What? In DnD there's a whole section about how o craft your own customized magic items. In Dragonmech (the thing I've been referencing) you have to craft your own steampowers. I don't know about mechwarrior but I know at least those two require crafting.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I've made dozens of D&D characters where I've been able to customise and mix-and-match their equipment without doing any crafting. Please explain to me how I was required to do so, in retrospect.

I'm referring to the section in the books where they tell you how to craft customized magic items. The only way to get completely customized items is to go by the guide. The way I can imagine that you are somehow customizing your items without personally crafting them is that you're getting someone (or something) else to craft them for you and if you're doing that I don't see how that is relevant to a conversation about making crafting interesting since you're just purposefully bypassing the step. Or perhaps every game you've ever played in just had an available magic mini mart where you could get your Vorpal Longswords set to +4 whenever you want without going through the crafting process, who knows? I certainly don't know what your games are like but I don't see what relevance you bypassing the need to actually 'craft' stuff to customize your gear has to a discussion about making crafting more interesting. Mix and matching your equipment is something else entirely and just relies on you picking up whatever you find/can buy and deciding what to use so your ability to do that without crafting is also irrelevant.

TL : DR : Either you're crafting customized stuff yourself or someone (something) else is. Or you're just mixing and matching treasure drops. Either way, I have to ask what relevance does that have to making crafting more interesting?

MGuy wrote:I'm referring to the section in the books where they tell you how to craft customized magic items. The only way to get completely customized items is to go by the guide. [..] Mix and matching your equipment is something else entirely and just relies on you picking up whatever you find/can buy and deciding what to use so your ability to do that without crafting is also irrelevant.

TL : DR : Either you're crafting customized stuff yourself or someone (something) else is.

I don't know what to tell you. Are you saying that if a character can buy an item in a store, that qualifies as "crafting" rules to you? Or is it "customizing" but not "crafting"? Or neither?

MGuy wrote:Either way, I have to ask what relevance does that have to making crafting more interesting?

That was stated already: If you want crafting to be interesting, make an interesting adventure out of it.

hogarth wrote:And certainly you could have the main story in a game be about finding resources, tools, recipes, etc.

Frank wrote:Bottom line: if something is supposed to be memorable, it's worth taking extra time on it. If the thing that is supposed to be memorable is getting a thing, then it's worth spending extra time getting the thing. And getting segments of a thing and combining them is a good way to draw out the time it takes to acquire a thing.

And similarly, optimizing and tinkering around with your PC is fun (for me, at least), but that's not specific to crafting. I honestly can't tell if you agree or disagree with me on that point!

I'm pretty sure that Frank's post was in response to LM's and Surgo's thing and not aligned with your line of thinking about whether or not something has to be crafted.

My point is that your mentioning that you haven't ever had to craft things in campaigns you've played is not relevant when discussing how to make crafting interesting because by buying and finding stuff instead of crafting it (and being satisfied with that) you simply sidestep the crafting system. That's not really a point as I could drop in on a thread about how to make Psionics interesting and say I've never had a campaign where I've HAD to be a psion to produce the same/similar results.

What's more, as I pointed out earlier, customizing your equipment is what can be fun about crafting. Mixing and matching shit you find/buy is something different and the fact that you can do that to customize your PC (not specifically your gear) is not terribly relevant to making the act of crafting more fun.

Jesus fucking Christ! You keep going in a circle.

MGuy: "I like crafting because it allows you to customize your equipment."
hogarth: "You can customize your equipment without crafting."
MGuy: "Why do you keep talking about customizing equipment? We're supposed to be about crafting!"

RadiantPhoenix wrote:

hyzmarca wrote:Technically, nothing you do in an RPG can be considered crafting, unless the minigame has the player physically forge a sword to specifications in order to obtain his +2 keen vorpal rapier (which would be cool, but expensive and time-consuming). No matter what, the player is just picking features out from a series of lists. It doesn't matter if he then pays a little extra GP to outsource his craft roll. It's really the same thing. Ordering custom material to specification is ultimately the exact same thing, mechanically, as paying extra resources for an autosuccess.

Crafting is the process of going from:

• Raw materials (that aren't just money)
  AND
• A design
  TO
• A finished item
  VIA
• Something that feels like your character is actually making the item

Raw materials are boring, and something that feels like your character is actually making the item is ultimately just fluff and unimportant.

Raw materials should be fungible and purchasable unless the item is plot important, otherwise players who want custom equipment need to grind for drops and that's unacceptable in a tabletop game.

hyzmarca wrote: Raw materials are boring, and something that feels like your character is actually making the item is ultimately just fluff and unimportant.

Raw materials should be fungible and purchasable unless the item is plot important, otherwise players who want custom equipment need to grind for drops and that's unacceptable in a tabletop game.

Grinding is bad, yes. But I think there's something to be said for making adventures out of the proactive accumulation of stuff. Not every quest needs to be handed down from on high or involve political high-stakes. Sometimes, it'd just be nice to have the player-directed, game session or two adventure where you need to hunt down something specific, at your own initiative.

"I don't care what the mayor or town-folk need, I need the Icy Heart of the North and, unless they have one laying around, we're hunting Frost Worms for their ice glands."

Blah blah, assuming the other players are on board for this, etc. whatever.

violence in the media wrote: But I think there's something to be said for making adventures out of the proactive accumulation of stuff. Not every quest needs to be handed down from on high or involve political high-stakes. Sometimes, it'd just be nice to have the player-directed, game session or two adventure where you need to hunt down something specific, at your own initiative.

I definitely believe "crafting as quest" is the most interesting way to go. But I'm less enthusiastic about side quests, since they sometimes get short shrift in terms of preparation or plotting compared to the "main event".

In a game I am now, we have multiple alchemists, including one that actually took Taxidermy as a skill. He's been collecting 'bits' from monsters we slay that give minor cl or effect bonuses when used as spell components, or in crafting magic items. Or as alchemical or poison ingredients.

It's cool, without being a major part of the game. But it's certainly nice for the alchemist/wand creation guy, or the alchemist/taxidermy guy

How opposed would people be to not always getting what you want, but getting something?

Like to get a Flaming Burst sword you have to use a magically prepped sword to kill a creature of CR9 or higher with the Fire subtype. But if you knock off a Fire Giant, it might and up as Bane:Giants instead?

hyzmarca wrote:

RadiantPhoenix wrote: Crafting is the process of going from:

• Raw materials (that aren't just money)
  AND
• A design
  TO
• A finished item
  VIA
• Something that feels like your character is actually making the item

Raw materials are boring, and something that feels like your character is actually making the item is ultimately just fluff and unimportant.

So, is your answer to the fundamental question being asked in this thread, "the actual process of making an item will never be interesting, so no."?

hogarth wrote:

violence in the media wrote: But I think there's something to be said for making adventures out of the proactive accumulation of stuff. Not every quest needs to be handed down from on high or involve political high-stakes. Sometimes, it'd just be nice to have the player-directed, game session or two adventure where you need to hunt down something specific, at your own initiative.

I definitely believe "crafting as quest" is the most interesting way to go. But I'm less enthusiastic about side quests, since they sometimes get short shrift in terms of preparation or plotting compared to the "main event".

I get what you're saying about sub-par side quests. I was more talking about making the Frost Worm hunt the main (short) quest, as opposed to having it be something done in service of a quest more encompassing than "procuring myself the Icy Heart of the North." Like I announce wanting to do that as a player and, if the rest of the table agrees, the MC writes that up as next week's adventure.

I suppose I'm just lamenting the ubiquitous nature of "high-stakes" adventuring, or maybe the comparative lack of player-directed adventures. Lots of people talk about how games get together when an MC comes up with an idea for what they want to run and totally ignore the fact that sometimes players just want someone to arbitrate whatever crazy shit they plan on doing.

Previn wrote:How opposed would people be to not always getting what you want, but getting something?

Like to get a Flaming Burst sword you have to use a magically prepped sword to kill a creature of CR9 or higher with the Fire subtype. But if you knock off a Fire Giant, it might and up as Bane:Giants instead?

I think I would have a lot more tolerance for that kind of thing in a videogame like Skyrim, where I can grind out the requirements quickly by myself in order to experiment and try lots of different combinations of "ingredients". If there's someone else at the table, I'd be discouraged from doing that.

Note that "random treasure vs. GM-placed treasure" is a bit of a separate issue from crafting.

RadiantPhoenix wrote:

hyzmarca wrote:

RadiantPhoenix wrote: Crafting is the process of going from:

• Raw materials (that aren't just money)
  AND
• A design
  TO
• A finished item
  VIA
• Something that feels like your character is actually making the item

Raw materials are boring, and something that feels like your character is actually making the item is ultimately just fluff and unimportant.

So, is your answer to the fundamental question being asked in this thread, "the actual process of making an item will never be interesting, so no."?

My answer is that putting things together is a physical exercise and the fun comes from the process of actually putting the parts together and getting a finished product, something that you cannot simulate at the gaming table. Designing things is an intellectual exercise. The fun is in figuring out how everything should fit together and designing something unique. That can be simulated at the gaming table.

Since both the design phase and the build phase are integral to crafting, focus should be placed on the design phase.


Alternately, you bring a computer with you and make your players play Jacksmith whenever they want to make something.

hogarth wrote:

Previn wrote:How opposed would people be to not always getting what you want, but getting something?

Like to get a Flaming Burst sword you have to use a magically prepped sword to kill a creature of CR9 or higher with the Fire subtype. But if you knock off a Fire Giant, it might and up as Bane:Giants instead?

I think I would have a lot more tolerance for that kind of thing in a videogame like Skyrim, where I can grind out the requirements quickly by myself in order to experiment and try lots of different combinations of "ingredients". If there's someone else at the table, I'd be discouraged from doing that.

Note that "random treasure vs. GM-placed treasure" is a bit of a separate issue from crafting.

I'm not sure you got my idea. There isn't any testing or 'ingredients' involved. You get a prep-spell cast on the item, check the list to see what feat you have to do get what you want, and then go do that. If what you do could be multiple things, then you get one at random.

It has nothing at all to do with placed or random treasure any more than having to find duck's teeth or carnivorous unicorn piss to craft a Staff of Healing does.

Previn wrote:

hogarth wrote:

Previn wrote:How opposed would people be to not always getting what you want, but getting something?

Like to get a Flaming Burst sword you have to use a magically prepped sword to kill a creature of CR9 or higher with the Fire subtype. But if you knock off a Fire Giant, it might and up as Bane:Giants instead?

I think I would have a lot more tolerance for that kind of thing in a videogame like Skyrim, where I can grind out the requirements quickly by myself in order to experiment and try lots of different combinations of "ingredients". If there's someone else at the table, I'd be discouraged from doing that.

Note that "random treasure vs. GM-placed treasure" is a bit of a separate issue from crafting.

I'm not sure you got my idea. There isn't any testing or 'ingredients' involved. You get a prep-spell cast on the item, check the list to see what feat you have to do get what you want, and then go do that. If what you do could be multiple things, then you get one at random.

The prep spell and the feat you have to perform are what I'm talking about as "ingredients" (which is why I put it in quotes).

And if you get random results, the temptation is to try the same thing a dozen times until you get the thing you really want. At least, that would be the temptation in a video game.

hogarth wrote:Jesus fucking Christ! You keep going in a circle.

MGuy: "I like crafting because it allows you to customize your equipment."
hogarth: "You can customize your equipment without crafting."
MGuy: "Why do you keep talking about customizing equipment? We're supposed to be about crafting!"

Actually no. It's more like

Topic: how do you make crafting interesting?
Me: make it so you can do wonky stuff* with items and the stuff you craft yourself.
hog: I can do wonky stuff with my stuff without crafting it in X game
Me: Your comment is off topic because:
A: You just bypassed the crafting process and in game X someone HAS to have crafted your shit
B: You're talking about doing wonky stuff by mix and matching treasure and pick ups which is not the same as doing wonky stuff with your actual gear
C: That is not a suggestion about making crafting more interesting
Hog: MGUY! you're not getting me!

And by wonky I mean make it so that you can make tradeoffs with the effectiveness of various gear (this sword hits harder but is less accurate) or mix match different effects so that you can make working combinations of stuff (See: Steampowers)